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Post by addasih on Apr 12, 2013 21:18:22 GMT 1
It is simple if the next convoy or the one after is Air France then Fabien is correct. It won't take long to know
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harty236
Outfitting in Hamburg
Posts: 974
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Post by harty236 on Apr 12, 2013 21:21:35 GMT 1
It is simple if the next convoy or the one after is Air France then Fabien is correct. It won't take long to know I wouldn't say that that's necessarily sufficient proof that Fabien is correct. I think both Fabien and mjoelnir have valid arguments and it'll be interesting to find out who is right.
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Post by FabienA380 on Apr 13, 2013 0:10:34 GMT 1
It doesn't make sense to me to wait for pictures of 'storage rooms' in Broughton to know if Wings could be put aside or not. I can recall (sorry, my bad) a few pictures of 'inside Broughton' showing pictures of Wings in production, however that is true, no picture of storage rooms. However, there has never been any picture of parts of MSN031 when it was stored in XFW. There was no picture at all neither of MSN047 MSN050 in storage for 10 months in TLS. I don't understand the point of view where Airbus could store Assembled frames, could store Part Builts, but could not store Wings?...... I think the time MSN117 will spend before roll out will indicate us wether is has the old Wings or the new Wings.. Fabien
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harty236
Outfitting in Hamburg
Posts: 974
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Post by harty236 on Apr 13, 2013 2:21:09 GMT 1
I think the time MSN117 will spend before roll out will indicate us wether is has the old Wings or the new Wings.. Agreed
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Post by FabienA380 on Apr 13, 2013 2:56:05 GMT 1
Though I think in fact as we mentionned, our discussion turns around the question wether Wings are customized, if not XWB would be right, all frames convoyed after and including MSN137 would be the new Wings. If yes, both options would still be opened. I had the answer on that when I toured TLS in 2009, I was told sets of Wings are built per MSN... We'll see... Fabien
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UK380
First Flight
Posts: 788
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Post by UK380 on Apr 13, 2013 8:59:55 GMT 1
We can talk all the day back and force, you Fabian believe in wing storage, I do not. Perhaps there is somebody knowing Brouthon well, who could answer us. Aircraft parts are required to be traceable from before manufacturing, even the metal needs to be traceable and every wing is made for a specific purpose or specific aircraft. In my view it is inconceivable to me that they are making wings at random. There is also a very complex supply chain process designed to get all the parts to the FAL at the same time. This means each subsection production process must have its own complex supply chain process to ensure that it can ship its subsections at the correct time. It is very complex to slow or stop these supply chains, look at Boeing they are still producing B787’s even though they all need a fix. I believe there are currently 35 of them at PAE. The full XFW tour takes you through this process; they receive 3 deliveries of A330 panels from the sub contractor each day each panel is for a specific aircraft so the sub assembly of that aircraft needs the supplier to deliver all the panels in the correct order. I believe there are parts of wings or entire wings sometimes stored in that process somewhere on the basis that there were other sub sections stored. That said some bits of aircraft take longer to produce than others and everyone does not start on the same frame on the same day. The forward sections need to be transported to the flight decks for attachment before they are shipped to the FAL, as a result the sections we see in XFW must by necessity be produced earlier than other parts.
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mjoelnir
in service - 2 years
Posts: 4,089
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Post by mjoelnir on Apr 13, 2013 12:57:13 GMT 1
We can talk all the day back and force, you Fabian believe in wing storage, I do not. Perhaps there is somebody knowing Brouthon well, who could answer us. Aircraft parts are required to be traceable from before manufacturing, even the metal needs to be traceable and every wing is made for a specific purpose or specific aircraft. In my view it is inconceivable to me that they are making wings at random. There is also a very complex supply chain process designed to get all the parts to the FAL at the same time. This means each subsection production process must have its own complex supply chain process to ensure that it can ship its subsections at the correct time. It is very complex to slow or stop these supply chains, look at Boeing they are still producing B787’s even though they all need a fix. I believe there are currently 35 of them at PAE. The full XFW tour takes you through this process; they receive 3 deliveries of A330 panels from the sub contractor each day each panel is for a specific aircraft so the sub assembly of that aircraft needs the supplier to deliver all the panels in the correct order. I believe there are parts of wings or entire wings sometimes stored in that process somewhere on the basis that there were other sub sections stored. That said some bits of aircraft take longer to produce than others and everyone does not start on the same frame on the same day. The forward sections need to be transported to the flight decks for attachment before they are shipped to the FAL, as a result the sections we see in XFW must by necessity be produced earlier than other parts. Of course every part for an modern aeroplane has to be traceable through the production, that by itself does not mean that it is known into what aircraft the part is expected to go when the part is produced. My best example are the very complex part called the jet engines. I understand that the fuselage parts are produced with one customer in mind as they are highly customized. Logistics are actually easier when not every piece is marked for a certain customer or MSN, like the landing gear, you just take the next one. Every piece is numbered so you register what goes into each frame at that time. You need 30 landing gears in 2012 you produce 31 to be safe. For example the tail fin, the customizing could start with the paint two weeks before body join, why keeping ten on stock because you changed the sequence of building MSN? I see no reason why wings have to be assigned before the transport from Broughton to Toulouse as there is only one type produced at each time. We saw change over from one type to another but not parallel production of two kinds. So until somebody shows me the wing storage, or evidence of a wing storage I keep to my opinion.
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Post by FabienA380 on Apr 13, 2013 14:06:26 GMT 1
I understand your point of view, but I'm not speaking about Wings storage room to store hundreds of Wings in advance, there would be no point. I'm just speaking about one set of Wings for a particular frame, that would be set aside for a delayed frame. Meaning just 2 Wings. I was told during my visit that each set of Wings are set for a specified frame, though you might be right, we don't know WHEN the customization on these Wings are implemented. Maybe that customization on Wings only happens during the pre-work to Body Join (Wings are pre-worked previous to Body Join). Fabien
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mjoelnir
in service - 2 years
Posts: 4,089
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Post by mjoelnir on Apr 13, 2013 14:50:32 GMT 1
I understand your point of view, but I'm not speaking about Wings storage room to store hundreds of Wings in advance, there would be no point. I'm just speaking about one set of Wings for a particular frame, that would be set aside for a delayed frame. Meaning just 2 Wings. I was told during my visit that each set of Wings are set for a specified frame, though you might be right, we don't know WHEN the customization on these Wings are implemented. Maybe that customization on Wings only happens during the pre-work to Body Join (Wings are pre-worked previous to Body Join). Fabien I would be horrified talking about storing hundreds of wings. But you either store or you do not, if you would assign MSN early to wings I would think about any number below ten sets in storage. If you assign MSN late to wings you only have the next set to ship. I think my no storage theory (opinion not fact) works well with both the information that wing production was constraining delivery numbers in 2013, and the timing of MSN 137. I proposed several convoys ago two more EK with old wings before MSN 137 with new wings. That was based solely on how I imagine wing production worked in winter 2012/2013. And in my own opinion my own opinion was proved right. (just opinion no fact)
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XWB
in service - 11 years
Posts: 16,115
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Post by XWB on Apr 13, 2013 20:54:35 GMT 1
I do not believe in storing parts. This post is a bit complicated, my English writing is not so good so I'm going to make the best of it. First, we are talking about a serial supply chain. It's not a super market where you can get a few parts when needed. No, you build the parts in sequence and storing parts would mean there will become gaps in the supply chain. If you go to Broughton you will find multiple wings under construction but you won't find multiple sets of wings in the same state of completion. It's not a parallel production process. I give an example with fictive data to demonstrate what I mean. Imagine the following: we go the Broughton and we find 5 sets of wings under construction: - MSN1, 90% complete - MSN2, 70% complete - MSN3, 50% complete - MSN4, 30% complete - MSN5, 10% complete These wings will be carried on the the following future convoys: - MSN1, convoy 2013/15 - MSN2, convoy 2013/16 - MSN3, convoy 2013/17 - MSN4, convoy 2013/18 - MSN5, convoy 2013/19 Now, if Airbus would store the wings of MSN3 due a delivery delay by the customer then there will be a gap in the supply chain and thus there should be a missing convoy. There are no other parts available that can be readied in time for convoy 2013/17. Storing parts is not possible. Keep also in mind that the A380 supply chain is already logistic nightmare and storing parts all over Europe (wings in the UK, sections in France and Germany, VTP in Spain etc) would not make things easier. It's the same reason why I believed that MSN137 would come before MSN141 (EK #45): 1) Reports said that the wings of MSN137 are the first one produced with the new design 2) Tim Clark said their 45th frame will also have the new wing design Now apply the math from above: the only logical outcome was that MSN137 had to be convoyed before MSN141. You don't built parts for MSN137 and MSN141, than store the parts for MSN137 and ship MSN141 first. Bottom line, I see 2 options if a customer wants to delay a frame: 1) Parts under cunstruction The parts are already under cunstruction. In this situation the parts will continue to go towards the FAL and the frame will be delayed on the flightline. 2) Part cunstruction has yet to start This one is a bit easier. The MSNXXX can be canceled or can be build later and Airbus has enough time the allocate the delivery slot to another customer. I think option 2 is the case for MSN117. MSN117 would originaly be deliverd in 2013 so the convoy should have take place before the end of March. This was not the case and therefore I think that MSN117 was delayed before construction had started. Just look at the 747 assembly process: 5 to 10 frames scheduled for final assembly are already delayed by their customers but Boeing just let the parts coming. Frames will be stored on the flightline or in the desert after assembly. A gap in the supply chain means there will be a period of no work at the FAL. So you don't want to interrupt the supply chain. I think the time MSN117 will spend before roll out will indicate us wether is has the old Wings or the new Wings.. The assembly time will tell us indeed a bit more. But according to the ATDB MSN117 will fly to XFW in August, meaning it will spend about 12 weeks in FAL an another 4 weeks on the flightline which is the normal period for frames without the need of wing repair.
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