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Post by kevin5345179 on Dec 3, 2018 18:29:30 GMT 1
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Baroque
in service - 2 years
Posts: 3,991
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Post by Baroque on Dec 3, 2018 20:25:25 GMT 1
Maybe it's good for Boeing. Between Lion Group and Garuda/Citilink, almost all incidents and accidents in the past several years have involved 737s, particularly runway overruns. Not heard of similar incidents involving A320s. Maybe something about that aircraft in those conditions make it more susceptible to such incidents.
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philidor
in service - 6 years
Posts: 8,950
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Post by philidor on Dec 4, 2018 13:02:55 GMT 1
I don't think they are threatening to cancel their whole order - they are talking of a more modest and perhaps more credible step : cancel their order for one (or more) upcoming 737s, which means refusing to take delivery.
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mjoelnir
in service - 2 years
Posts: 4,089
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Post by mjoelnir on Dec 4, 2018 13:38:08 GMT 1
I don't think they are threatening to cancel their whole order - they are talking of a more modest and perhaps more credible step : cancel their order for one (or more) upcoming 737s, which means refusing to take delivery. I think the Boeing response to the accident got them riled up. Let us assume that the maintenance was done to Boeing specs. The difference training for the pilots done to Boeing specs. And if then Boeing did not gave enough information regarding the change of systems, I would be incensed. Some people want to bend to bad maintenance at Lion Air, why should that be? I could understand that on old frames cutting corners could cut cost, if they should do that. But on a brand new 737-8 failing sensors or similar, they would send an invoice to Boeing the next day and make a warranty claim, so why not do the work. If the aircraft can not fly because of things that fall under a warranty, send another invoice to Boeing.
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philidor
in service - 6 years
Posts: 8,950
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Post by philidor on Dec 4, 2018 14:11:49 GMT 1
I think that Lion Air is fighting for its image ... And its insurance costs ! The airline has been plagued by a string of incidents /accidents and now has a less-than-stellar reputation. I guess insurance companies are charging them hefty additional premiums and even probably threaten to terminate their contracts.
If Boeing agreed to take responsibility for the latest accident, Lion Air would be relieved, but this is not going to happen ...
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mjoelnir
in service - 2 years
Posts: 4,089
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Post by mjoelnir on Dec 4, 2018 15:03:15 GMT 1
I think that Lion Air is fighting for its image ... And its insurance costs ! The airline has been plagued by a string of incidents /accidents and now has a less-than-stellar reputation. I guess insurance companies are charging them hefty additional premiums and even probably threaten to terminate their contracts. If Boeing agreed to take responsibility for the latest accident, Lion Air would be relieved, but this is not going to happen ... But Boeing is also fighting for its image. I am a bit tired of this pointing to the bad track record of Lion Air. Does not have to have anything to do with this accident. But it is already known that Boeing has withheld information to pilots regarding the new systems. We do not have to believe Lion Air about insufficient training regime for pilots moving from NG to MAX, but if Southwest pilots and AA pilots talk about insufficient difference training, I think it has to be taken seriously.
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philidor
in service - 6 years
Posts: 8,950
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Post by philidor on Dec 4, 2018 17:18:18 GMT 1
Boeing is also fighting for its image. That's true, and it's the reason Lion isn't going to achieve much from Boeing. I am a bit tired of this pointing to the bad track record of Lion Air. Does not have to have anything to do with this accident. But it is already known that Boeing has withheld information to pilots regarding the new systems. Accidents usually result from a chain of events, not from a single cause. We'll have to wait for the final report before we blame anybody.
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Baroque
in service - 2 years
Posts: 3,991
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Post by Baroque on Dec 4, 2018 20:18:39 GMT 1
I'm ok with anyone saying that this crash was the result of many factors from aircraft design, maintenance and pilot response without assigning blame to any single party alone.
But when I read the Boeing reaction, I found it quite distressing that they tried to solely pin it on maintenance and pilots not doing their job without making any sort of reference to the single-point failure of their new AoA-MCAS system and the lack of awareness among the pilots.
This vulnerability exists on every MAX aircraft without a fix and seems to be random in nature. Of course you would assign some of the blame on maintenance if they failed to address it correctly after pilots on the previous flights reported the issues. But how would you do that if the crash happened on the very first flight the issue arose, which is very much a strong possibility given the random nature of the problem? Maintenance could have easily been absolved of any part of this as they would not have any information something was going to go wrong without a symptom.
The pilots on the previous flight were also lucky to have figured out that there was a problem with the trim system and by trial and error, used the cutout switch and continued to fly the aircraft to the destination. This wouldn't have been a problem if they followed the correct procedures in the book to make that call. But the reality is that they continued to fly a plane to the destination without fully understanding what they have done to the aircraft. MCAS is supposed to be a critical safety device that protected the aircraft from stall in a high AoA situation because of the different handling characteristics. So, what if they at any point after the initial problem, got into a situation where they needed its protection and weren't trained to handle the aircraft without it? Could you blame the pilots for crashing the plane in those circumstances?
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mjoelnir
in service - 2 years
Posts: 4,089
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Post by mjoelnir on Dec 4, 2018 23:05:33 GMT 1
Boeing is also fighting for its image. That's true, and it's the reason Lion isn't going to achieve much from Boeing. I am a bit tired of this pointing to the bad track record of Lion Air. Does not have to have anything to do with this accident. But it is already known that Boeing has withheld information to pilots regarding the new systems. Accidents usually result from a chain of events, not from a single cause. We'll have to wait for the final report before we blame anybody. But we do not have to wait for the information, that Boeing did not sufficiently inform pilots of MCAS and that difference training did not include those failure scenarios in the simulator. We know that big groups of pilots did only train for the MAX on NG simulators, that do not include MAX peculiarities. Those information do not even depend on if MCAS had any influence on this crash. I see it as a big deal for Boeing, if they should loose Lion Air as a customer. Boeing had that problem wit US air about acknowledging fault, even though the NTSB declared the crash of flight US427 due to rudder malfunction. Here Boeing is denying having given insufficient information to pilots.
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philidor
in service - 6 years
Posts: 8,950
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Post by philidor on Dec 5, 2018 9:50:11 GMT 1
This vulnerability exists on every MAX aircraft without a fix and seems to be random in nature. We don't know yet whether better information and better pilot training are a sufficient response, or whether Boeing has to improve the aircraft.
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