mjoelnir
in service - 2 years
Posts: 4,089
|
Post by mjoelnir on Nov 24, 2013 16:05:47 GMT 1
Not to re-open a settled debate, but the wingtip fence on the A320 was over 25 years old, replacing it with a sharklet supposedly yields 4% on longer routes. On the A380, the wingtip fence is a little over 5 years old and replacing it with "something new" supposedly yields 3%. I'm not saying it's impossible, but those numbers are to illustrate my point.. 3% under these circumstances is a lot. Yes the wingtip fence on the i 320 is 25 years old first flown 1988. The wingtip fence on the 380 was first flown 2005 seven years ago. But could you show me the difference in design between a 320 wingtip fence and the 380 fence?
|
|
Taliesin
Final Assembly Line stage 1
In Thrust we trust
Posts: 228
|
Post by Taliesin on Nov 24, 2013 16:30:01 GMT 1
I suppose your point is that because they are both wingtip fences, they must be practically the same thing? Ignoring the fact that one is 20 years younger, 3 times as tall, mounted to a wing with 2,5 times the wing span and 6,5 times the wing area and optimised for an ultra longhaul aircraft?
The overall concept is the same, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing or work the same way or provide the same boost in efficiency. Sharklets seem to work better overall, but it's worth keeping in mind that everything in aviation is a trade-off. Just because blended winglets are all the rage in the aviation world these days doesn't mean that wingtip fences are far worse by default. Sharklets and blended winglets were known concepts in 2000-2005 when the A380 was developed. Airbus knew about this and decided that the wingtip fences did the best job. No one reinvented aerodynamics or numerical simulations between then and now, so I fail to see where those 3% are supposed to come from.
If we're talking about Sharklets on a folding wingtip extension, sure, I can see 3% easily.
|
|
mjoelnir
in service - 2 years
Posts: 4,089
|
Post by mjoelnir on Nov 25, 2013 1:54:07 GMT 1
I suppose your point is that because they are both wingtip fences, they must be practically the same thing? Ignoring the fact that one is 20 years younger, 3 times as tall, mounted to a wing with 2,5 times the wing span and 6,5 times the wing area and optimised for an ultra longhaul aircraft? The overall concept is the same, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing or work the same way or provide the same boost in efficiency. Sharklets seem to work better overall, but it's worth keeping in mind that everything in aviation is a trade-off. Just because blended winglets are all the rage in the aviation world these days doesn't mean that wingtip fences are far worse by default. Sharklets and blended winglets were known concepts in 2000-2005 when the A380 was developed. Airbus knew about this and decided that the wingtip fences did the best job. No one reinvented aerodynamics or numerical simulations between then and now, so I fail to see where those 3% are supposed to come from. If we're talking about Sharklets on a folding wingtip extension, sure, I can see 3% easily. First, when you have look at them they have similar proportions, both about halfway back on a rounded wingtip. Second, it was quite a time after the first flight of the A380 that Airbus found a design of a "blended winglet" for the 320 they were satisfied with. And third, I end always on the constrains, the wingtip fence may not have been the best design, but the best design fitting the constrained of 80m wingspan. IMO i think Airbus will go to some kind of folding wing extension. IMO they will reach 5%. But that is only my opinion,
|
|
Taliesin
Final Assembly Line stage 1
In Thrust we trust
Posts: 228
|
Post by Taliesin on Nov 25, 2013 2:07:01 GMT 1
I think we're generally in agreement
|
|
noistar
Final Assembly Line stage 2
Posts: 388
|
Post by noistar on Dec 5, 2013 2:56:20 GMT 1
I (think I) read that Economy class cover the cost of a flight, leaving Business and First class as 'profit'.
If so, wouldn't an all Premium Economy be feasible. Think of the (especially Emirates) customers who would love legroom and seat width. Anybody want to lease an A380 to try it out? I'll be CEO and put $100 up.
|
|
|
Post by FabienA380 on Dec 6, 2013 20:33:06 GMT 1
|
|
|
Post by vlafollower on Dec 6, 2013 21:57:35 GMT 1
I love the way Fabrice Bregier fields questions by the aviation reporters. The guy is a good communicator and doesn't reveal too much - seems to me like. Not nearly as blunt as John Leahy - much more subtle when getting in the little digs at the "Lazy B" in Seattle. As Fabrice comments "Boeing has announced big orders or intentions to order a new product which doesn’t exist and [which] they claim will enter service in 2020. I prefer to have orders that I can deliver in the coming years than orders I can deliver after 2020.” Go get them Monsieur Bregier!!
|
|
Taliesin
Final Assembly Line stage 1
In Thrust we trust
Posts: 228
|
Post by Taliesin on Dec 6, 2013 23:10:22 GMT 1
It might be a trick to make Boeing think Airbus aren't going to strike back when the 777X comes out.. Sometimes I think most of the official statements are tactical more than they are factual.
|
|
noistar
Final Assembly Line stage 2
Posts: 388
|
Post by noistar on Dec 7, 2013 3:23:43 GMT 1
Hope this link works Is the new MSN004 livery a subtle reminder that if you fly 12 hours with your knees under your chin, blame the airline, NOT the plane?
|
|
|
Post by vlafollower on Dec 7, 2013 3:59:51 GMT 1
Taliesin - Bregier and Leahy are masters at this game of capturing sales in commercial aviation and deceiving the competition in Seattle. I wouldn't want to play "poker" with either one of these guys. "Strip poker" and I would be down to my "shorts" in a half a dozen hands! Srip poker is where you have to take off an article of clothing every time you lose a hand. I did that in high-school and the girls threw up their hands and ran when they were down to their bras and panties!! Darn girls with morals back in the day right here in North America!! Leahy has had the "Lazy B" down to their "bras and panties" more than once in the last decade; and generally they ran like heck too!! No morals but just plain scared of the Airbus competition - in my opinion.
|
|