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Post by peter on Mar 11, 2019 16:36:45 GMT 1
Good news, updates now coming through 😀 Geoff Yes, but the bad news is: no corrections. Lots of errors  |
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Post by ff on Mar 11, 2019 16:50:38 GMT 1
Good news, updates now coming through 😀 Geoff Yes, but the bad news is: no corrections. Lots of errors Exactly! |
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philidor
in service - 6 years
Posts: 8,950
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Post by philidor on Mar 13, 2019 9:24:33 GMT 1
A few posts up there was a post about that the German Government could take over a A350 delivery slot of Air Mauritius to make sure they get one on time. Thanks for that explanation, Airlines can’t sell ‘slots’ there is nothing to sell. Airbus, in this case, controls the manufacturing schedule. Airbus is indeed in full control ! I guess they offered the German government an early opportunity - either a truly NTU aircraft, or an aircraft intended for a customer wishing to postpone delivery. Anyhow, fitting out the aircraft to its bespoke configuration should take a lot of time ! |
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mjoelnir
in service - 2 years
Posts: 4,089
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Post by mjoelnir on Mar 13, 2019 10:26:53 GMT 1
A few posts up there was a post about that the German Government could take over a A350 delivery slot of Air Mauritius to make sure they get one on time. Thanks for that explanation, Airlines can’t sell ‘slots’ there is nothing to sell. Airbus, in this case, controls the manufacturing schedule. Geoff Not to this case, but an observation. Airline can sell slots. It depends on the contract. When a contract is made an airline pays money to fix certain delivery dates, it may be an order, MOU or options, that can even be monetary value in a bankruptcy case. Airlines can move their orders to different airlines and so on. It is a case of the conditions of the contract between the airline and the Manufacturer. |
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philidor
in service - 6 years
Posts: 8,950
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Post by philidor on Mar 13, 2019 12:23:32 GMT 1
Airline can sell slots. It depends on the contract. NOT without the manufacturer's agreement. All the contracts I have seen are very clear on that issue. The airline is entitled to take delivery at the agreed date, which only means that it receives some compensation if the manufacturer is late. If the airline wants to speed up delivery, it can only apply for a change. If it wants to delay, it often enjoys some flexibility within contract limits, but it is not entitled to use that flexibility to strike a deal. There is one reason why airlines cannot freely 'sell' delivery slots, it's what I would call 'overbooking' ! Especially where narrowbodies are concerned, manufacturers often commit to more deliveries than the number of aircraft they can produce, because they face cancellations and deferments, which offset the 'overbooking'. Differences are managed by negotiation with customers (the manufacturer offers an early delivery, or offers a compensation if a customer accepts a delay). So, 'selling slots' is a confusing terminology. An airline may receive some money for delaying delivery, but it must be a three-party agreement, such a deal being impossible when the manufacturer is struggling with deliveries. In the latter case one airline will receive a payment (from the manufacturer) to accept a delay, but no other one will get a new slot. |
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mtrunz
delivered!
Digital Aviation/Meteo Analyst
Posts: 1,956 
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Post by mtrunz on Mar 13, 2019 12:48:32 GMT 1
Thanks for that explanation, Airlines can’t sell ‘slots’ there is nothing to sell. Airbus, in this case, controls the manufacturing schedule. Airbus is indeed in full control ! I guess they offered the German government an early opportunity - either a truly NTU aircraft, or an aircraft intended for a customer wishing to postpone delivery. Anyhow, fitting out the aircraft to its bespoke configuration should take a lot of time ! Could be up to a year after Delivery! The A321 conversion from Lufthansa to the German Government was almost a year and a half I believe. Maybe it will be faster now since it will already be empty. |
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mjoelnir
in service - 2 years
Posts: 4,089
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Post by mjoelnir on Mar 13, 2019 12:59:03 GMT 1
Airline can sell slots. It depends on the contract. NOT without the manufacturer's agreement. All the contracts I have seen are very clear on that issue. The airline is entitled to take delivery at the agreed date, which only means that it receives some compensation if the manufacturer is late. If the airline wants to speed up delivery, it can only apply for a change. If it wants to delay, it often enjoys some flexibility within contract limits, but it is not entitled to use that flexibility to strike a deal. There is one reason why airlines cannot freely 'sell' delivery slots, it's what I would call 'overbooking' ! Especially where narrowbodies are concerned, manufacturers often commit to more deliveries than the number of aircraft they can produce, because they face cancellations and deferments, which offset the 'overbooking'. Differences are managed by negotiation with customers (the manufacturer offers an early delivery, or offers a compensation if a customer accepts a delay). So, 'selling slots' is a confusing terminology. An airline may receive some money for delaying delivery, but it must be a three-party agreement, such a deal being impossible when the manufacturer is struggling with deliveries. In the latter case one airline will receive a payment (from the manufacturer) to accept a delay, but no other one will get a new slot. We talk her about an airline or let us say a leasing company has a delivery date. If all payments are made on the agreed upon dates and the aircraft is taken on the date agreed upon. If now the airline does not fly it themselves, but moves it over to another airline for example, I do not see where it would be an industry wide rule, that that will never be aloud to happen. Just for example Icelandair sold 4 787-8 slots to Norwegian. All payments made on the right dates and the aircraft delivered to Norwegian instead of Icelandair. Boeing of course delivered late as this were rather early birds. Or instead of taking delivery themselves the bird is sold to a leasing company and the airline is leasing it. Or the airline sells the frame straight away on to another owner. Like Norwegian did with a few A320. You can call it selling a slot, because it is taking advantage of a fixed date and the end user would not have got a frame that fast. You are talking about late delivery by the manufacturer, or taking late delivery, or deferring delivery, that is a completely different thing. |
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ghorn
Outfitting in Hamburg
Posts: 993
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Post by ghorn on Mar 13, 2019 13:15:32 GMT 1
NOT without the manufacturer's agreement. All the contracts I have seen are very clear on that issue. The airline is entitled to take delivery at the agreed date, which only means that it receives some compensation if the manufacturer is late. If the airline wants to speed up delivery, it can only apply for a change. If it wants to delay, it often enjoys some flexibility within contract limits, but it is not entitled to use that flexibility to strike a deal. There is one reason why airlines cannot freely 'sell' delivery slots, it's what I would call 'overbooking' ! Especially where narrowbodies are concerned, manufacturers often commit to more deliveries than the number of aircraft they can produce, because they face cancellations and deferments, which offset the 'overbooking'. Differences are managed by negotiation with customers (the manufacturer offers an early delivery, or offers a compensation if a customer accepts a delay). So, 'selling slots' is a confusing terminology. An airline may receive some money for delaying delivery, but it must be a three-party agreement, such a deal being impossible when the manufacturer is struggling with deliveries. In the latter case one airline will receive a payment (from the manufacturer) to accept a delay, but no other one will get a new slot. We talk her about an airline or let us say a leasing company has a delivery date. If all payments are made on the agreed upon dates and the aircraft is taken on the date agreed upon. If now the airline does not fly it themselves, but moves it over to another airline for example, I do not see where it would be an industry wide rule, that that will never be aloud to happen. Just for example Icelandair sold 4 787-8 slots to Norwegian. All payments made on the right dates and the aircraft delivered to Norwegian instead of Icelandair. Boeing of course delivered late as this were rather early birds. Or instead of taking delivery themselves the bird is sold to a leasing company and the airline is leasing it. Or the airline sells the frame straight away on to another owner. Like Norwegian did with a few A320. You can call it selling a slot, because it is taking advantage of a fixed date and the end user would not have got a frame that fast. You are talking about late delivery by the manufacturer, or taking late delivery, or deferring delivery, that is a completely different thing. Are you sure ? Isn’t it more likely that Icelandair cancelled with Boeing and Boeing sold to Norwegian. Geoff |
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mjoelnir
in service - 2 years
Posts: 4,089
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Post by mjoelnir on Mar 13, 2019 13:46:15 GMT 1
We talk her about an airline or let us say a leasing company has a delivery date. If all payments are made on the agreed upon dates and the aircraft is taken on the date agreed upon. If now the airline does not fly it themselves, but moves it over to another airline for example, I do not see where it would be an industry wide rule, that that will never be aloud to happen. Just for example Icelandair sold 4 787-8 slots to Norwegian. All payments made on the right dates and the aircraft delivered to Norwegian instead of Icelandair. Boeing of course delivered late as this were rather early birds. Or instead of taking delivery themselves the bird is sold to a leasing company and the airline is leasing it. Or the airline sells the frame straight away on to another owner. Like Norwegian did with a few A320. You can call it selling a slot, because it is taking advantage of a fixed date and the end user would not have got a frame that fast. You are talking about late delivery by the manufacturer, or taking late delivery, or deferring delivery, that is a completely different thing. Are you sure ? Isn’t it more likely that Icelandair cancelled with Boeing and Boeing sold to Norwegian. Geoff Icelandair made money on it. They had very early, rather inexpensive slots. How the contracts were exactly written, I do not know. |
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philidor
in service - 6 years
Posts: 8,950
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Post by philidor on Mar 13, 2019 14:05:41 GMT 1
We talk her about an airline or let us say a leasing company has a delivery date. If all payments are made on the agreed upon dates and the aircraft is taken on the date agreed upon. If now the airline does not fly it themselves, but moves it over to another airline for example, I do not see where it would be an industry wide rule, that that will never be aloud to happen. Customers aren't free to sell their aircraft or purchase rights at their own will. These rights are non-transferable, an exception being made for long-term leasing. That rule, which extends beyond delivery, is central in all aircraft purchase agreements. In return for discounts on list price, customers cannot freely sell their frames in the next few years after delivery (often five years) , unless it is to lease it back for the same duration. This professional practice may be the main reason why list prices exist, and why lessors are part of the aviation business, while wholesalers aren't ! Of course, a customer may always get a waiver from the manufacturer. |
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