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Post by FabienA380 on Mar 30, 2017 22:20:11 GMT 1
It might change when used ones arrive in the market.....
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s543
in service - 2 years
Posts: 3,957
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Post by s543 on Mar 30, 2017 22:31:28 GMT 1
It might change when used ones arrive in the market..... Roger that - DELTA is big on second hand planes - even the oldest ones are still young for DELTA - they do not mind well over 20 years old machines
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Post by kevin5345179 on Mar 31, 2017 1:40:14 GMT 1
It might change when used ones arrive in the market..... Roger that - DELTA is big on second hand planes - even the oldest ones are still young for DELTA - they do not mind well over 20 years old machines I think DL is still after the 2nd hand 777 I can't really picture they buy the airplane from ME3 based on the fight they had Realistic speaking, the chance that they buy from ME3 is the highest ....
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philidor
in service - 6 years
Posts: 8,950
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Post by philidor on Mar 31, 2017 17:44:24 GMT 1
In the piece you quote, Forbes does not express an opinion on this issue. Forbes only quotes an analyst. "In a recent note, Deutsche Bank DB +0.00% analyst Mike Linenberg said Virgin Atlantic is unlikely to execute its orders now that Delta is a 49% owner of the carrier". So, this is an analyst's opinion, not anything Forbes said. The source you provided also confirms that DL was talking about their own needs, not VA's. "Speaking at a Wings Club meeting in New York in May, Delta CEO Richard Anderson, was asked about the A380. He responded by saying that Delta doesn't think the plane makes sense for its network". We all know that VA's network is different from DL's, and that the airline is operating from a fast-growing slot-limited airport.
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Post by kevin5345179 on Mar 31, 2017 21:21:35 GMT 1
In the piece you quote, Forbes does not express an opinion on this issue. Forbes only quotes an analyst. "In a recent note, Deutsche Bank DB +0.00% analyst Mike Linenberg said Virgin Atlantic is unlikely to execute its orders now that Delta is a 49% owner of the carrier". So, this is an analyst's opinion, not anything Forbes said. The source you provided also confirms that DL was talking about their own needs, not VA's. "Speaking at a Wings Club meeting in New York in May, Delta CEO Richard Anderson, was asked about the A380. He responded by saying that Delta doesn't think the plane makes sense for its network". We all know that VA's network is different from DL's, and that the airline is operating from a fast-growing slot-limited airport. Apology for my improper citation. However this doesn't change the fact that Delta was well determined about A380. I see you pointed out RA said it doesn't make sense for its network; however, if you continue reading it, there are much more. I'll quote it in below: But that does not include the A380. Speaking at a Wings Club meeting in New York in May, Delta CEO Richard Anderson, was asked about the A380. He responded by saying that Delta doesn't think the plane makes sense for its network. Linenberg wrote that “ the majority of those who operate the A380 have not been able to achieve a positive gap between ROIC and WACC,” noting that “ in other words, they are destroying capital.” Among the publicly-traded A380 operators, he said, “ only China Southern and Lufthansa have a positive ROIC – WACC gap. “Our point is that we do not believe the addition of an A380 to an airline’s fleet is a means to enhance financial returns,” he said. “ There is only one airline that we think has figured out how to make money with the A380 and that is Emirates, but they are unique.” I also found another article and I suppose the source is referring the same analyst from Deutsche Bank, but the language was a lot more aggressive: An analyst from Deutsche Bank expects that Delta will pressure Virgin Atlantic to not buy these A380s, following in Delta's existing stance on the aircraft. But the first delivery of an A380 to Virgin Atlantic is scheduled for 2018 so there is still time to make a decision. www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/10/08/delta-air-lines-vs-the-airbus-a380.aspxIn the same article, it also pointed out: Conventional wisdom would teach us that giant aircraft would have lower cost per passenger and be more economical for heavily traveled routes. However, Delta Air Lines CEO Richard Anderson disagrees, saying, " The A380 is, by definition, an uneconomic airplane unless you're a state-owned enterprise with subsidies." In addition, DL is going to cap capacity growth since Q4 2016 all the way to entire 2017 (according to ATW). It is extremely unlikely that a big airplane like A380 will ever show up in their fleet in near future. atwonline.com/blog/three-reasons-why-major-us-airlines-are-not-planning-grow-2017
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cck
Final Assembly Line stage 1
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Post by cck on Apr 1, 2017 8:46:00 GMT 1
Linenberg wrote that “ the majority of those who operate the A380 have not been able to achieve a positive gap between ROIC and WACC,” noting that “ in other words, they are destroying capital.” Among the publicly-traded A380 operators, he said, “ only China Southern and Lufthansa have a positive ROIC – WACC gap. “Our point is that we do not believe the addition of an A380 to an airline’s fleet is a means to enhance financial returns,” he said. “ There is only one airline that we think has figured out how to make money with the A380 and that is Emirates, but they are unique.” I also found another article and I suppose the source is referring the same analyst from Deutsche Bank, but the language was a lot more aggressive: An analyst from Deutsche Bank expects that Delta will pressure Virgin Atlantic to not buy these A380s, following in Delta's existing stance on the aircraft. But the first delivery of an A380 to Virgin Atlantic is scheduled for 2018 so there is still time to make a decision. www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/10/08/delta-air-lines-vs-the-airbus-a380.aspxIn the same article, it also pointed out: Conventional wisdom would teach us that giant aircraft would have lower cost per passenger and be more economical for heavily traveled routes. However, Delta Air Lines CEO Richard Anderson disagrees, saying, " The A380 is, by definition, an uneconomic airplane unless you're a state-owned enterprise with subsidies." In addition, DL is going to cap capacity growth since Q4 2016 all the way to entire 2017 (according to ATW). It is extremely unlikely that a big airplane like A380 will ever show up in their fleet in near future. atwonline.com/blog/three-reasons-why-major-us-airlines-are-not-planning-grow-2017For positive ROIC - WACC gap of Lufthansa & China Southern, is this number a A380 only figure or fleet-wise figure? This make a lot of different. While pratically ROIC & WACC of public listed company are easily available, I found it not common for rival airline to obtain A380 only figure as detailed figures are normally confidential. fleet-wise or i should say company's figure is not a suitable number to argue on A380's economic as there are other factors like economy condition in home country, location of hub, efficiency of company operation, composition of A380 in total fleet & etc which would affect the number. On Emirate's case, they are unique as every airline is unique. Whether would VA give up A380 due to Delta's influence, we would see. Delta is profit oriented, if it's feasible for VA to take A380, they wouldn't oppose it. We would know soon. To fill up A380 is not easy given current trend of LCC's point-to-point operation and development of airport in every part of the world, but eventually time will come where it's not practical to have so many aircrafts in limited airspace and you couldn't build any more airport. Time for A380 will come, especially in China & India.
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Post by kevin5345179 on Apr 1, 2017 15:54:15 GMT 1
For positive ROIC - WACC gap of Lufthansa & China Southern, is this number a A380 only figure or fleet-wise figure? This make a lot of different. While pratically ROIC & WACC of public listed company are easily available, I found it not common for rival airline to obtain A380 only figure as detailed figures are normally confidential. fleet-wise or i should say company's figure is not a suitable number to argue on A380's economic as there are other factors like economy condition in home country, location of hub, efficiency of company operation, composition of A380 in total fleet & etc which would affect the number. On Emirate's case, they are unique as every airline is unique. Whether would VA give up A380 due to Delta's influence, we would see. Delta is profit oriented, if it's feasible for VA to take A380, they wouldn't oppose it. We would know soon. To fill up A380 is not easy given current trend of LCC's point-to-point operation and development of airport in every part of the world, but eventually time will come where it's not practical to have so many aircrafts in limited airspace and you couldn't build any more airport. Time for A380 will come, especially in China & India. I don't think we really need to take the detail of Anderson's wording that seriously; instead, only focus on the attitude. He made claims about DL won't buy "paper plane" and they committed 50 airbus widebody before any of the type took into the sky. He brought up a huge battle against ME3 due to government subsidize company shouldn't compete freely with them given the open sky rule, but DL works with Saudia ..... He'll make claims that only favors him and ignore the rest, but his attitude and the intention is actually pretty clear from those statement. Given the fact that US and EU have been putting significant effort to modernize the ATC system, the overall airport slots will increase if those go online. In addition, the global economy doesn't seem to be optimistic for majority of carrier. I think this is partially why DL keep the seat growth as low as 1%. By putting all these in, I tend to believe the time for A380 is nowhere close yet .....
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philidor
in service - 6 years
Posts: 8,950
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Post by philidor on Apr 2, 2017 18:40:43 GMT 1
This sentence clarifies the reason DL is talking about the A380 : "The A380 is, by definition, an uneconomic airplane unless you're a state-owned enterprise with subsidies." Everything that is said is part of the campaign versue EK - as they failed to demonstrate subsidies, they use another approach : the aircraft is uneconomical, EK uses 100 of them, they must be subsidised.
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s543
in service - 2 years
Posts: 3,957
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Post by s543 on Apr 2, 2017 21:26:04 GMT 1
This sentence clarifies the reason DL is talking about the A380 : "The A380 is, by definition, an uneconomic airplane unless you're a state-owned enterprise with subsidies." Everything that is said is part of the campaign versue EK - as they failed to demonstrate subsidies, they use another approach : the aircraft is uneconomical, EK uses 100 of them, they must be subsidised. He can not say : "EK does a good business with the A380 and is not subsidized i.e. the faulty reasoning is probably on our side" No way ! True is that Delta (and all other US airlines) has more hubs - not one major one i.e. ...... so to fill up the A380 is very tough - if at all possible - for them. Up to that by flying to so many smaller hubs they provide better service to the customers - some may spare one plane change - which specifically while incoming to the USA is worth mentioning since one must pick up the luggage and if continuing on domestic flight give it back to the carrier.
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Post by pa380scal on May 16, 2017 9:50:26 GMT 1
let's see:
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