s543
in service - 2 years
Posts: 3,957
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Post by s543 on Dec 16, 2015 11:47:09 GMT 1
Philidor COOL . More seriously: I do believe that in the real life the customers pay a bit over 50% of the list price of WB in the time of closing the deal - as a rule of thumb.
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someone
in service - 1 year
Posts: 3,238
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Post by someone on Dec 16, 2015 14:07:12 GMT 1
Emirates can have paid a lot less for the aircraft than what it is sold to Amedeo for. If they just increase the leasing cost, the yield will go up, and thus the price Amedeo is willing to pay
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philidor
in service - 6 years
Posts: 8,950
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Post by philidor on Dec 16, 2015 15:26:44 GMT 1
Emirates can have paid a lot less for the aircraft than what it is sold to Amedeo for. If they just increase the leasing cost, the yield will go up, and thus the price Amedeo is willing to pay Some airlines enjoying low (= under current market price) unit purchase costs (thanks to order size or timely order) have been doing exactly what you suggest : they make a profit on each sale-and-lease-back transaction (selling at market price instead of purchase price), and consequently have to pay a higher lease price in the following years. That's one reason Ryan Air has been quickly rotating its 737 fleet for years (another reason is to enjoy a permanent 'maintenance holiday'). This system works if you are growing fast and the market for used frames is favourable (if not, lessors may become less flexible). EK might indeed make a profit on A380 sale-and-lease-back transactions (I don't know at all, the drawback would be a higher lease price), but obviously cannot rotate its A380s very fast, since the DORIC/Amedeo leases are 12 years deals. In the context of the discussion above, this uncertainty casts an additional doubt on A380 market price. EDIT : in a sale-and-lease-back transaction, a lessor accepting, at lessee's request, to pay for an aircraft a price higher than said lessee's own purchase price takes on an additional risk should the lessee go bankrupt. As the A380 is considered a particularly risky asset, a professional lessor would not, in my opinion, do this for this type of aircraft. DORIC and Amedeo however are a different kind of lessor (they act on behalf of special purpose companies), which might show more flexibility.
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sciing
in service - 1 year
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Post by sciing on Dec 16, 2015 15:51:09 GMT 1
If you read any prospect for an aircraft fond the investtment is fully paid off with good profit after the usuall 10 or 12 years. Also depriation for an aircraft is around 12 years. So any further lease is an extra profit, especially as the airlines have also to pay for big maintanance and configuration change. So the risk for the leasing fond buyer is the return of the ac due an insolvency during this time.
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henge
Final Assembly Line stage 2
Posts: 346
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Post by henge on Dec 17, 2015 3:34:41 GMT 1
Emirates can have paid a lot less for the aircraft than what it is sold to Amedeo for. If they just increase the leasing cost, the yield will go up, and thus the price Amedeo is willing to pay Are you saying that this transaction was a sale-and-lease-back thing? As I understand it, this would mean that Emirates buys the plane from Airbus and then sells in on to Amedeo, simultaneously leasing it back. However, the Amedeo document explicitly states that the aircraft was "directly purchased from Airbus" - not from Emirates. As so often with these legal matters, I'm totally confused...
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s543
in service - 2 years
Posts: 3,957
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Post by s543 on Dec 17, 2015 8:55:11 GMT 1
I would guess that the lessor is in better position (if something untowards happen) while he purchases direct from AB, but....
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philidor
in service - 6 years
Posts: 8,950
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Post by philidor on Dec 17, 2015 14:39:45 GMT 1
Are you saying that this transaction was a sale-and-lease-back thing? As I understand it, this would mean that Emirates buys the plane from Airbus and then sells in on to Amedeo, simultaneously leasing it back. However, the Amedeo document explicitly states that the aircraft was "directly purchased from Airbus" - not from Emirates. As so often with these legal matters, I'm totally confused... The aircraft was ordered from Airbus by EK, with EK's specifications, but EK did not want to own it, they had rather lease it (to dodge ownership risk, or because it is their policy to keep a young fleet). They agreed on contract terms with Amedeo which was then substituted to EK for implementation of the purchase contract with Airbus. Now, depending on when the substitution occurs (before or after delivery), there are some legal differences as ownership of the aircraft remains with Airbus until delivery. The end result however is exactly the same. In this case, as Amedeo states they purchased the aircraft from Airbus, EK's contract rights may have been transferred to them before delivery.
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kronus
in service - 1 year
Posts: 3,209
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Post by kronus on Apr 17, 2016 11:03:44 GMT 1
Latest order by Emirates 2 ex-skymark a380 maybe cause that need for more A380 ceo by EK until neo will be available. This is chance for Amedeo to lease all 20 ordered a380 (or part of order) to EK.
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s543
in service - 2 years
Posts: 3,957
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Post by s543 on Apr 17, 2016 21:33:19 GMT 1
Latest order by Emirates 2 ex-skymark a380 maybe cause that need for more A380 ceo by EK until neo will be available. This is chance for Amedeo to lease all 20 ordered a380 (or part of order) to EK. It is your speculation or have read it somewhere ?
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philidor
in service - 6 years
Posts: 8,950
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Post by philidor on Apr 17, 2016 23:05:09 GMT 1
Latest order by Emirates 2 ex-skymark a380 maybe cause that need for more A380 ceo by EK until neo will be available. This is chance for Amedeo to lease all 20 ordered a380 (or part of order) to EK. All A380s bought by Amedeo so far were ordered by an airline, not by them. The purchases are three-party deals by which they fund and lease back an aircraft which was initially ordered from Airbus by an airline. This kind of business has nothing to do with their own order. Amedeo therefore still has 20 frames on order, but no operator so far has shown interest in taking any of them.
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