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Post by Jkkw on Dec 3, 2015 10:25:21 GMT 1
Boeing has electronic support as well. Flight augmentation, tailstrike protection, flutter protection, engine ice removal, on top FBW for ailerons and spoilers and such. They even have the very same (used to be)-"Marconi"-chipset behind it that Airbus is using. However Boeing permits violent overrides if the pilot insists on trying something else. (No guarantee the a/c will remain intact doing so) Thanks for that, I didn't realise that Boeing had these systems. Something I forgot to mention in my previous post regarding technology aimed at preventing stalls, Stick shakers and/or pushers have been around for quite a while (before fbw) and are installed on some aircraft to warn the pilot of an impending stall (stick shakers) and physically pushes the yoke down moments before/during a stall (stick pushers) although this system can be overridden by the pilots. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stick_pusheren.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stick_shaker
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Post by airboche on Dec 3, 2015 11:05:11 GMT 1
The MD-11 has a stick pusher as an example.
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XWB
in service - 11 years
Posts: 16,115
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Post by XWB on Dec 3, 2015 11:13:38 GMT 1
An overview of the Airbus flight control laws can be found here: www.airbusdriver.net/airbus_fltlaws.htmIn Alternate Law the airplane behaves the same as Normal Law, just without flight envelope protections.
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Post by airboche on Dec 3, 2015 12:56:22 GMT 1
from that source:
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Taliesin
Final Assembly Line stage 1
In Thrust we trust
Posts: 228
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Post by Taliesin on Dec 3, 2015 13:34:02 GMT 1
Would it be feasable to use available basic data to put in a "stabilize now"-knob or similar in the cockpit to bring the a/c straight and level in a second anytime just with let's say laser gyro data or something else that will remain available anytime even during emergencies? Modern fighters do have something like this. As jkkw was saying, such protections already exist, but rely on correct air data to work. With a faulty Flight Augmentation Computer, how do you safely tell the correct course of action? The second problem is more systemic. If you counter pilot incompetence by more safety nets and protection systems, you're only pushing the boundary of how incompetent pilots can " safely" become. If your bus driver just gets up and leaves, whole driving down a winding road, you don't go and buy a better steering wheel, you hire better bus drivers.
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Post by airboche on Dec 3, 2015 13:55:39 GMT 1
I was thinking about this Eurofighter feature. So no more FAC-CB pulling for the pilots please. Could it do any harm? I mean why do we have a TOGA button? It's hard to accept stalled aircraft crashing from high altitude with sort of clueless or frozen pilots at the controls. (don't want to sound too harsh to anybody - apologies) source: self.gutenberg.org/articles/eurofighter_typhoonwww.sfte-ec.org/node/862
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Baroque
in service - 2 years
Posts: 3,991
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Post by Baroque on Dec 3, 2015 14:58:21 GMT 1
I was thinking about this Eurofighter feature. So no more FAC-CB pulling for the pilots please. Could it do any harm? I mean why do we have a TOGA button? It's hard to accept stalled aircraft crashing from high altitude with sort of clueless or frozen pilots at the controls. (don't want to sound too harsh to anybody - apologies) Two different things, I think. The fighter aircraft probably assumes that the pilot lost control of the aircraft and all systems are functioning normally. In the case of the accidents like this one and AF447, the systems malfunctioned. So as the old axiom goes, Garbage In -> Garbage Out. The system is unable to determine whether the data it receives is nonsense or not and so a stabilise button may not end up in a favourable outcome.
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Post by airboche on Dec 3, 2015 15:05:28 GMT 1
This is why I wondered if internally available basic data might possibly be enough for some very basic stabilisation? Determine where is up, determine where is the horizon, set a safe AoA, safe power setting and such. I mean to try everything is better than letting it just crash. Just look what a cellphone can sense these days. Maybe one could even implement a "de-stall" routine? I know we are talking about very exotic situations and circumstances but let's not just wait for another one.
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Post by stealthmanbob on Dec 3, 2015 15:20:59 GMT 1
airboche watch the a320 video posted by Jkkw . You will see that when the systems / sensors are all working stalls etc are impossible. But when a system malfunctions or one of them is turned off its down to a human to work out what's going on, what information is reliable and act accordingly.
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Post by airboche on Dec 3, 2015 15:35:32 GMT 1
Yeah discovery channel nice. My question was targeted at situations like AF447 or this accident here. Couldn't it be possible to harvest core data from the remaining sensors and systems that still enable the aircraft to do some basic recovery maneuvre? You could even keep the pilots perfectly in the loop by only starting it on demand with a push button command.
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