mjoelnir
in service - 2 years
Posts: 4,089
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Post by mjoelnir on Oct 25, 2013 14:09:25 GMT 1
I would be surprised if QR doesn't order the 777X. I remember the last Dubai Airshow where he walked away from an Airbus order announcement claiming they couldn't make planes before returning a few hours later to announce a deal for neos and A380s. This statement might be similar however, if his words are to be trusted, he might feel that QR already has enough aircraft with the 787/A350/A380 or that in his opinion, the 777X won't meet the performance numbers required especially in the middle east where Tim Clark of Emirates said a water injection system may be required for the engine. Interesting times ahead. I do not understand why an airline having ordered the A 350-1000 would than need to order the B 777-9X. I can understand LH, A 350-900 and than B 777-9X. I think here is just this perception that the three ME will order the B 777-9X in heaps and now the first of them will not. |
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HL7615
Roll Out Flight Line in Toulouse
Posts: 509 
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Post by HL7615 on Oct 25, 2013 17:39:16 GMT 1
I'd rather interpret that as they are interested, but want to cut a deal with Boeing. Al Baker didn't earn his nickname "U-turn Al" for nothing! Also let's not forget that barely six months ago he was all over the 777X. |
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XWB
in service - 11 years
Posts: 16,115
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Post by XWB on Oct 25, 2013 23:16:39 GMT 1
I would be surprised if QR doesn't order the 777X. I remember the last Dubai Airshow where he walked away from an Airbus order announcement claiming they couldn't make planes before returning a few hours later to announce a deal for neos and A380s. This statement might be similar however, if his words are to be trusted, he might feel that QR already has enough aircraft with the 787/A350/A380 or that in his opinion, the 777X won't meet the performance numbers required especially in the middle east where Tim Clark of Emirates said a water injection system may be required for the engine. Interesting times ahead. I do not understand why an airline having ordered the A 350-1000 would than need to order the B 777-9X. Because it can hold 50-60 more seats? |
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philidor
in service - 6 years
Posts: 8,950
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Post by philidor on Oct 25, 2013 23:37:43 GMT 1
I do not understand why an airline having ordered the A 350-1000 would than need to order the B 777-9X. Because it can hold 50-60 more seats? Think of LH adding 779s to A380s and B748s ! Though in my opinion LH's may not be the ideal mix, we must accept that some airlines may use more than one type and try to make the best of the differences. |
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mjoelnir
in service - 2 years
Posts: 4,089
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Post by mjoelnir on Oct 26, 2013 1:10:25 GMT 1
Because it can hold 50-60 more seats? Think of LH adding 779s to A380s and B748s ! Though in my opinion LH's may not be the ideal mix, we must accept that some airlines may use more than one type and try to make the best of the differences. My emphasis was on NEED as a must. When there is always a need to buying the bigger frame, why does not everybody end up with a A 380? There is a bigger difference between a B 777-9X and an A 380 in size than between a A 350-1000 and the B 777-9X. The B 747-8 and B 777-9X is easy, the B 747-8 is available now the B 777-9X in seven to eight years. |
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Post by Jkkw on Oct 26, 2013 8:09:48 GMT 1
I would be surprised if QR doesn't order the 777X. I remember the last Dubai Airshow where he walked away from an Airbus order announcement claiming they couldn't make planes before returning a few hours later to announce a deal for neos and A380s. This statement might be similar however, if his words are to be trusted, he might feel that QR already has enough aircraft with the 787/A350/A380 or that in his opinion, the 777X won't meet the performance numbers required especially in the middle east where Tim Clark of Emirates said a water injection system may be required for the engine. Interesting times ahead. I do not understand why an airline having ordered the A 350-1000 would than need to order the B 777-9X. I can understand LH, A 350-900 and than B 777-9X. I think here is just this perception that the three ME will order the B 777-9X in heaps and now the first of them will not. Yes, I am under the perception that the 3 ME carriers will all order the 777-9X. Emirates is an obvious candidate with their current fleet of 777s and so is Etihad. Both airlines have also expressed interest in the aircraft with rumours that EY will order around 30 at Dubai and EK ordering a whole lot more. For both those airlines, the -9X will be a better replacement for the 77W than the A35J due to the fact that in both airlines, their 777s are ten abreast, something that would be very uncomfortable in the A350. Both airlines have A350s on order and they will probably be used on routes where there is high traffic but not enough to warrant the -9X. I'm not sure what the CASM is for the -9X compared to the A35J but if you can't fill the extra 50-60 seats on the -9X, then it will be cheaper to operate the A35J. Qatar too has expressed previously interest in the 777X (see here) and despite their 777s being 9 abreast, I think Qatar will go 10 abreast on the 777X (if they order them) as they went 9 abreast on the 787. As with the other two gulf carriers, the 777-9X will offer greater flexibility in their operations. It also means that two production lines are working to replace their current aircraft, meaning they'll have a more fuel efficient fleet, sooner. On a much less important note, ordering both aircraft keeps the two manufacturers happy, improving their chances of getting the aircraft more cheaply (Although, Mr Al Baker's mouth does the same job). As for other carriers, if you're not going to put 10 abreast in the 777X (which will give you a seat width of around 17.4in) then I see no point in ordering the aircraft if you have A35Js. The fuselage of the -9X is only around 2.2 metres longer than the A35J which translates to a maximum of 3 more economy rows = 27 more passengers (although 2 more rows is more likely = 18 pax). One thing that I cannot say much about is the CASM of each aircraft. It may be that the CASM between the twins (A35J and -9X) is quite a bit lower than the A380 and 748, hence airlines may be attracted to the -9X as it is the largest aircraft before CASM goes up. And between the A35J and -9X, the CASM may be similar (or the A35J may be better) but at the end of the day, the -9X is heaver with more powerful engines which presumably means that overall it will be more expensive to operate. |
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philidor
in service - 6 years
Posts: 8,950
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Post by philidor on Oct 26, 2013 10:16:13 GMT 1
Yes, I am under the perception that the 3 ME carriers will all order the 777-9X. Emirates is an obvious candidate with their current fleet of 777s and so is Etihad. Both airlines have also expressed interest in the aircraft with rumours that EY will order around 30 at Dubai and EK ordering a whole lot more. For both those airlines, the -9X will be a better replacement for the 77W than the A35J due to the fact that in both airlines, their 777s are ten abreast, something that would be very uncomfortable in the A350. Both airlines have A350s on order and they will probably be used on routes where there is high traffic but not enough to warrant the -9X. I'm not sure what the CASM is for the -9X compared to the A35J but if you can't fill the extra 50-60 seats on the -9X, then it will be cheaper to operate the A35J. Qatar too has expressed previously interest in the 777X (see here) and despite their 777s being 9 abreast, I think Qatar will go 10 abreast on the 777X (if they order them) as they went 9 abreast on the 787. As with the other two gulf carriers, the 777-9X will offer greater flexibility in their operations. It also means that two production lines are working to replace their current aircraft, meaning they'll have a more fuel efficient fleet, sooner. On a much less important note, ordering both aircraft keeps the two manufacturers happy, improving their chances of getting the aircraft more cheaply (Although, Mr Al Baker's mouth does the same job). As for other carriers, if you're not going to put 10 abreast in the 777X (which will give you a seat width of around 17.4in) then I see no point in ordering the aircraft if you have A35Js. The fuselage of the -9X is only around 2.2 metres longer than the A35J which translates to a maximum of 3 more economy rows = 27 more passengers (although 2 more rows is more likely = 18 pax). One thing that I cannot say much about is the CASM of each aircraft. It may be that the CASM between the twins (A35J and -9X) is quite a bit lower than the A380 and 748, hence airlines may be attracted to the -9X as it is the largest aircraft before CASM goes up. And between the A35J and -9X, the CASM may be similar (or the A35J may be better) but at the end of the day, the -9X is heaver with more powerful engines which presumably means that overall it will be more expensive to operate. As far as seat numbers are concerned, Airbus stated in a recent A350 update that the A350-1000 could carry up to 369 pax in a two class configuration, and pointed out that, having fewer doors (four vs the -9X's five), the aircraft also had an extra seat row. Seat numbers definitely are for each airline to determine ... As regards operating costs, Airbus provided a slide claiming an A350-1000 at 350 seats will have a more than 5% fuel burn advantage per seat over a -9X at 405 seats (the slide is online at airchive.com). This is in part because they consider the -1000 has a 40 metric tons weight advantage (including fuel weight difference for the same mission). Of course, expect Boeing's numbers to be quite different ...
For the moment, nobody knows, since the 777X's specs are still moving. Aspire aviation thinks that engine thrust and MTOW are growing, but I would not trust them entirely. If they are right, EK seems indeed to have a lot of influence on the specs ... As regards the sales potential, I think that the -9X is for airlines who need a 400 seats capacity in a very dense seating layout, but the large LH order suggests the market may be larger than I think. |
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Post by addasih on Dec 20, 2013 17:23:47 GMT 1
It seems Boeing doesn't know that UAE also in Asia  |
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Post by peter on Dec 21, 2013 11:53:49 GMT 1
I think they mean first firm order  |
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Post by addasih on Dec 21, 2013 12:57:21 GMT 1
Emirates and Eithad are firm but it seems they consider Middle East a separate region not part of Asia
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